Atheist & Agnostics-Hi there!
also, to the founder of this thread, richard dawkins’ “the god delusion” is a good read, as is “why darwin matters” by michael shermer.
look for a chapter of a humanist association in your area?
The entire book of Leviticus (correct me if I’m wrong) is rules rules rules on how to live your life, including the famed anti-homosexuality clause. I find it hard to believe that you follow all the rules set forth in the entire Bible. I remember some of them being terribly out of date, about not touching women on thier periods and only wearing one type of cloth at a time. So, if you don’t follow these rules though they hardly apply to modern times, are you sinning?
“Tell me why you have fear while doing it then if it is not a sin? Same as masturbationâ€¦. people feel terribly guilty afterwards.”
Teens who grow up in restrictive households fear sex and masturbation because they fear punishment. If you don’t believe that its wrong and deserves punishment, then you don’t fear it. I certainly don’t fear sex or masturbation, and view them as natural and healthy.
I find this quote very interesting, although I do not know who said it.
“Now, Through the Looking Glass, that poem “The walrus and the carpenter”, that’s an indictment of organised religion; the walrus with his girth and good nature, obviously represents either Buddha, or, with his tusks, the Hindu elephant god, Lord Ganesha—that takes care of your eastern religions. Now, the carpenter, which is an obvious reference to Jesus Christ, who was raised a carpenter’s son, he represents the western religions. Now, in the poem what do they do? What do they do? They dupe all these oysters into following them, and then proceed to shuck and devour the helpless creatures en massÃ©. Now, I don’t know what that says to you, but, to me it says, that following these faiths based on mythological figures ensures the destruction of one’s inner being. Organised religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions, by inhibiting our decisions, out of fear of some intangible parent figure, who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says “Do it, do it and I’ll f*ing spank you!”“
Fear of heavenly retribution causes guilt, which makes religion more about guilt and unhappiness than peace and love for many people.
I think this thread is getting off topic? Winona simply wanted to hear from other atheists on goneraw.com? Why is God interjected here at all?
An honest debate could be had in another thread. :-)
I’m not an atheist, I’m actually a Baha’i but I respect everyone’s beliefs.
In regards to websites, Micki of mickipedia.com is my favorite online atheist! Her youtube vids are of particular interest – you may enjoy this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP9zWI5gCWs
Haters blow, especially when they spew evil while hiding behind the Bible. This thread is supposed to be a chat thread for agnostics and aethists. They don’t crawl all over the “calling all Christian” threads, so I would expect the same respect on this one.
true. i didn’t bother commenting on the christian thread, despite my not-exactly-respectful view of the religion.
I don’t know exactly what I am “called” but I don’t believe in a god that is a person but I do believe in an intelligent energy force that we and everything else is a part of. I believe that Jesus was a great teacher and it is a shame that his words were written thru someone else’s interpetation of it. I would really like to know what he really said. as well as budda. I think organized religion was created to control people and they follow out of fear as so many of you have pointed out. What I am labeled as I have no idea or why we are here but this world is just to breath taking to be accidental. does that make any sense?
Yes… a lot of people bring up the law. When Jesus came, he fulfilled the law. We are no longer subject to 613 (if I remember right) laws of the old testament.
Let me tell all of you about a friend of mine….a VERY good friend of mine. PLEASE READ THIS. This guy was an atheist for a long time. He did not believe that there could be a God. He was very depressed. He struggled with many problems. He told me that he was masturbating since like the 6th grade (about when I started doing that too). He told me that he always felt guilty afterwards and he always had fear afterwards but it was something that he just learned to get used to.
Anyhow, he was very depressed. Often wanted to kill himself. The only thing that kept him from doing so was the though of it being unsuccessful and he being crazy all his life. He also HATED Christians. He hated them because of many reasons. Mainly because they seemed to think that they have found the way (as if they could be that special). That they had found this God). He hated them because they were living a lie. Also because he believed he ought to be able to rape a girl if he wanted to. Did not like being told what to do. Did not kill Christians because he did not want to rot in prison.
But, after talking to a Christian, this one true Christian (many call themselves Christian and are not), challenged him to ask God if he is real. If God is real, God will show himself to him. If God is real,.he should show himself to you. He would intervene. That is what my friend did. He asked God to show himself to him and said that if God is real, then he would serve him.
Within a few days later, he had no desire for any kind of sexual lust, he was not depressed, did not need pills for depression, did not want to kill people. He was DEEPLY moved and convinced that God was real. He then changed and accepted Jesus into his heart and to this day, he is serving God.
Haters blow, especially when they spew evil while hiding behind the Bible. This thread is supposed to be a chat thread for agnostics and aethists. They donâ€™t crawl all over the â€œcalling all Christianâ€ threads, so I would expect the same respect on this one.
I see…..I see…..
Just let me say that I feel that the bible was not talked down enough. It seems like all I got was opinions… can anyone email me and give me more detail? I would really want more detail because if there is a problem with the bible, I should know about it.
Please email me and we can discuss it.
ok…what was the point of that story? that your friend was depressed and religion helped him? so? what bearing does that have on the validity of the religion?
i don’t suppose i should go into the extraordinary numbers of people religion forced into depression and suicide as a result of their homosexuality, skepticism, and so forth…as well as the monumental numbers of people tortured and murdered in the name of one or another god…
also, if you’re implying that atheists are generally a group of depressed, struggling, unhappy and confused individuals with suicidal tendencies, you are greatly misinformed.
ooooh the gloves are coming off…to quote the mask, somebody stop me!=P
It is not religion…it is God. Although this would keep the discussion going, wouldn’t it?
No, I am not implying that. I am saying that God showed himself to my friend, he has done the same for me….this is proof, that God is real. That is all. It is not religion, it is God. it is Truth.
Now, you do not have to like it. The bible talks about people like that, Men love darkness rather than light. They do not come to the light because they do not want their deeds to be reveled, so they stay in the dark.
No, I was not talking so much about atheists alone. Many people call themselves Christians and have the same problem. Because they are not truly a Christian.
Well, I said what I think I should say, that is all. God bless all of you and though you do not like it, you are in my prayers. ALL OF YOU.
Well said, GET him Elizabethh!!! MASTERBATION IS NORMAL AND NATURAL, ALL ANIMALS, EVEN IN THE WILD DO IT MALE AND FEMALE FROM BIRTH TO DEATH Those who feel guilty have been misinformed that it is nasty and evil… YOUNG man GROW UP and GET REAL life is too short and you are too young to be so starchy!!!
PLEASE GET ME.
The bible does speak of that too.
Hi! I am a christian and I am replying to everyone here not as a debater, but as a conversationalist. Even as there are a great many types of christians, there are a great many on the other side, also. I am with mamamilk in my feelings of distaste at the way so many christians treat athiest, agnostic, pagan, ect. shgadwa, Last time I checked, the Bible still teaches discretion, mercy and wisdom, and if you do not have wisdom.then ask of God and he will not put you down for it. But if you ask sincerely he will give it. Thank you.
Amen, waterbaby. Amen to that!
Not all people who do not subscribe to Christianity want to rape and kill themselves or others. Those who do will not necessarily find relief in Christianity or any religion. I don’t think you’re going to find many people sympathetic to your views on the Atheist/Agnostic thread, shgadwa. I think its even less likely that your stories and prayers are going to do much converting. I have tried to be as polite and open-minded as possible, but I don’t think you’re doing the same in this discussion. Please realize there are many paths other than yours that provide a happy life. I am sure your relationship with your god is wonderful and I admire it, please respect our relationships with our truths. Live and let live, I suppose.
In other news, I have yet to grow hair on my palms due to my healthy relationship with myself. :)
Also, shgadwa, the Christopher Hitchens book I mentioned earlier would be a really interesting read for you if you want to learn about another point of view. Its a fantastic book and very thought-provoking.
i would like to repeat that the fact that you and your friend, (just like countless people before you belonging to countless different religions and gods), having a spiritual awakening and having your lives improved by religion is not proof of anything. it does not even have anything to do with the validity of your argument. i don’t even know how else to put it, it is simply terrible logic,
the ideas do not overlap.
god isn’t real because you believe he is real. god isn’t the truth because you believe it is the truth. likewise, it is not the truth because fifty million people believe it is the truth. it is a way of looking at the world that deserves to be scrutinized like everything else.
in response to your second statement, again you are speaking from a highly (undeserved) superior voice. you believe you are in the “light”, and i am in the “dark, because i am ashamed of my deeds? you are mistaken.
you have no right to pass judgement on my life. i live life free, happy, and compassionate to other living beings, and without fear of hell. that is hardly a dark place.
As a christian I am a minority on this earth, so I was a bit curious about a group who were interested in an agnostic/athiest thread. It seems to me that this is more of the norm, and the christians are more of an odity. Anyway, I do not mean to keep posting where I am not welcome. I was just curious and thought I would chat. I did see something else here that I was kind of curious about. That is why anyone would think that a christians desire to convert someone to loving Jesus would be looked at as being hateful? Thanks.
I grew up in a nuetral household, we never went to church, nor were my parents religious….although their parents were very much so! I am a non-beleiver…I like it that way, I beleive in myself and my ability to make things happen rather than relying on some imaginary source….My mom is now a born again Christian, and for a while tried to convert me, doing unmentionable things which I have now forgiven her for. Thankfully this whole time, my Father has had the same beliefs me, none to be exact. Live your life and let others live their’s.
Pulse – we don’t mind a healthy bit of debate from believers or non-believers. It’s just pretty obnoxious having a believer decide that since we don’t believe, we all need to be converted and saved from our miserable, awful lives. He’s pretty much passed judgment on us because we don’t believe. Where is the love and/or Christianity in that action?
That is why anyone would think that a christians desire to convert someone to loving Jesus would be looked at as being hateful?
We aren’t asking to be converted. This post was about raw Athiests and Agnostics. In not a single post do any of us claim we are seeking religion, and we’d like help. Our beliefs, which we feel just as passionately about as any Christian does his/her religion, are not just being questioned (which makes for an interesting debate), but are being thrown completely out of the window like trash. That’s disrespectful in my opinion.
“One more point: if heaven is a place where women are treated like second class citizens and homosexuals arenâ€™t welcome, Iâ€™m not interested.”
I 100% agree.
rawperasinger – you know what’s funny? I decided to delete my post – because some of my family members are interested in raw – and I’m afraid they will find this site, read my post, and try to convert me all over again. :( It also depresses me to think that they believe I’m doomed to hell for my lack of belief. :(
I was raised in a very religious family. I always sensed that organized religions (western ones) were lacking in “wholeness” (they were limiting- not empowering, freeing, or truly enlightening to people) and even hypocritical in many aspects (God is a Loving God and LOVE, yet he is spiteful and jealous and we are to FEAR him, and “HIM??” as in how women are lesser than men??? and we women should just feel grateful to be “included” in our lesser part of serving men. Puhleeeze!) . I never felt Atheist as I sensed a greater energy encompassing and affecting our world (Nature provides this knowingness to me endlessly, everyday), and I never felt quite Agnostic either, although I could relate to the feelings of them both. I cringed, and still do, at considering myself Chrsitian for the same reasons mentioned earlier by previous posters. For quite a while I wondered what I was and worried about it. I could agree with many parts of different “religions” or belief systems, like Buddhism, Paganism, Christianity, Atheism, Agnosticism, Pantheism, and many many more as they all have very similar fundamental truths if you recognize them in their different wordings, yet would always find things that did not fit right with me, either in each.
I no longer even worry about what I am though. I no longer feel any need to label myself, and am happier (freed) having realized just how extremely limiting words and defintions are, both spoken words and unspoken ones (thoughts). :) Essence/Creation/Energy/Love/God/Spirit/Source is far greater than our limited little human minds can comprehend and define. And that is not to say that we are not far more powerful beings in our untapped capabilites of comprehending and acting than we have done so, so far in our long, evolving history.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Atheists and Agnostics as I feel they, generally speaking, are more open- minded because they consider and question things/life and do not simply live a repetitive cycle of simply remianing “inside the box,” practicing the dogmatic beliefs and thoughts that have been handed down to them by brainwashed parents, even though well- meaning but still ignorant, by the Western religions that have been manipulated by a power hungry few for thousands of years now. I also respect those who seek to learn and encompass what Jesus’ true original teachings were, which have been manpulated to a large degree by those power hungry few who had control and influence over the revisions of the Bible.
Reading all of your posts, I can agree with something in almost everyone’s posts, although I do feel repulsion at some specific “Christians’” comments. Everyone has portions of the Truth, me included in that group. As some have pointed out- there are many ways to the One Truth- and we are all the same Essence in the end… Creation/Love.
Fascinating For all: Agnostic, Athiest, Religious, Spiritual, I highly, highly recommend reading Eckhart Tolle’s books “The Power of Now” and “A New Earth”. His books are all encompassing, un-limiting, absolutely amazing, thought-provoking and empowering, without ostracizing anyone, unless one cares to take offense by the fact that he doesn’t omitt anyone of a belief or non-belief. :)
And also- what beautiful thoughts many of you have expressed here regarding nature, acceptance, sprituality, self- responsibilty, love of all, non-prejudism, equality, etc: too many for me to re- write in my already too long post, but it is wonderful to see so many beautifully loving, accepting, self empowered thinkers and believers here despite what spritual or non-spritual labels are used. :)
I think some of the posts on this thread perfectly illustrate why religion is the most dangerous invention of mankind. In my mind, I draw a bright line between religion and spirituality. Spirituality focuses on bringing people together, respecting those who are or think differently, and respect for individuality and autonomy. Spirituality does not wall off its members into a superior and more deserving class. It doesn’t wall off anyone. It is all things positive and beautiful.
Unlike, spirituality, religion seeks to oppress and belittle those who do not adopt the religious dogma. It is a thin veil that doesn’t hide a form of hate mongering. Members are justified in setting themselves apart as better and more deserving than non-members. The beliefs, emotions, and values of non-members are marginalized. Organized religion abhors personal freedom and autonomy. While committing these atrocities, religious members wallow in their perceived superiority and feel justified in they way they treat others. Organized religion is the pinnacle of hypocricy. Personally, I don’t see it as being any different than being a Nazi or KKK member. It perpetuates the same evil but in a different, perhaps even more insidious, way.
The final irony is that “faith” requires members to abandon all attempts at logical thought. Thinking would expose the absurdities. It is true because god said it was true. The end. Don’t ask me to think because I’m not allowed to think. I can preach, but I am not allowed to think.
Most of my experiences with organized religion have been with christianity as I live in a predominately christian country and was raised as a christian. I always struggled with the dogma of what a good christian was and did. The teachings said one thing but we were required to do the opposite. I could see the harm I was expected to inflict on others and it sickened me. I went from church to church and touched all denominations. It never changed. It was heartbreaking. I have only met a tiny, tiny percentage of people identifying themselves as christians that I would define as spiritual in their beliefs. It is tragic because you would have to assume these people intended to do more good than harm. They just stayed so wrapped up in using their beliefs as a means to elevate themselves that they lost sight of everything else.
I don’t enjoy grouping christians into this class that I see as possessing undesirable and dangerous traits. My gripe is not what they believe but the harmful way in which they execute their beliefs and they treat non-christians. I don’t see non-christians as superior to christians. As far as belief systems, I think we are all struggling to get to the same place. Every artist would paint a picture of an apple differently but each one is still trying to paint an apple.
I do consider myself an atheist because whatever the Source is, we can’t describe it or come close to conceptualizing it. I am not going to allow my mental limitations to mold the Source into something I can understand, like a supreme creator who judges all and holds them accountable. (I don’t believe god created man in god’s image. I believe man created god in man’s image.) I also consider myself a buddhist but do not believe buddhism is a religion. It is void of gods and functions as a course in philosophy, psychology, and the study of other sciences like physics. It has been very healing for me to experience a non-judgmental and non-condemning approach to my mind, others, and the universe and to do so in a holistic way.
RAWPERASINGER – I never feel guilty after I masturbate. I’m always asleep. Woohoo!
Ok I see your point heyenglish! I do not want to debate for sake of debate that is for sure! I am a christian that has a lot of unanswered questions about the Bible and I am on a seeking mission right now. I have seen miracles and divine intervention in my life and others. For that I am thankful. I could never deny what Christ has done for me, but I do have a lot of questions about how we all
fit into his plan for our world.
rawperasinger-as I understand it there will be no difference of sex in heaven. As for right now, God does not deal with people differently based on sex.
I do not consider myself anything but spiritual, as I don’t like to fit myself into a mold if I can help it. But, I wanted to post (of all things) a hindu saying that I learned long ago in one of my philosophy classes that I find fitting to some of the posts on here:
“God gave humans the truth. The devil came and said ‘I’ll organize it for you and call it religion”.
Granted, this really would only be relevant if you believed in God or the Devil…but I think the message is still spot on- the truth is what YOU believe it is, when someone else tries to interpret it for you, things can become less than ideal.
Just food for thought…
Hey guys! This is supposed to be a thread for Raw Atheists and Agnostics. Winona was looking for some support since she is a newbie at this.
This has turned into a big religious debate (which I think Kandance and Ray dont really want on here). If you want to debate about religion, there are plenty of other website forums for that.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but that is not why Winona started this thread I am sure.
The debates that are starting on this thread is exactly the reason why I don’t debate on my being an atheist anymore – people start getting all defensive about why other choose to be atheists.
Since Winona is already an atheist – I am sure she doesn’t need to read all the religous debate posts. Sorry, guys but, at least in my personal experience, becoming an atheists isn’t something people just jump into. I am sure she has already gone through all the arguements.
I know everyone wants to chime in with their opinions – it is so tempting – and peoples stories are interesting. But I don’t go and post on the Raw Christian thread because I am not a Christian so it would not be proper – in fact, I don’t even read it because it doesn’t pertain to me – I would like this thread to stay agonostic/atheist friendly.only please! We agnostic/atheists should be able to have our own peaceful thread too!
If I were Winona I probably would have deleted this thread already and started it over.
and if you do not have wisdom.then ask of God and he will not put you down for it. But if you ask sincerely he will give it. Thank you.
Not to bring anything old, up, but…..these are people that do not believe in God, so they will not ask God. Secondly, God cares more about their soul. The more and more I think about it, the only thing I can do for both atheists and those who call themselves Christians and are not, is pray for them…..
Even me saying to them, God bless, might have also been out of order.
My husband and I are both athiests.My husband just had a book published-”Why I became an Athiest: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity”. We live in a small city and own our own business in Indiana so it is going to be interesting now that his book is available.
I am vegan and transitioning to raw and my husband eats S.A.D. so this is also a challenge, however we are both happy with the choices we have made.
My husband just had a book published-â€Why I became an Athiest: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianityâ€.
Although i am very busy, I would love to read that book…..can I get it at the library???
If you do not mind….what is his name? I might possibly know him. I have been communicating lately with a former preacher, now atheist, on youtube.