Atheist & Agnostics-Hi there!
shgadwa, i’m going to look past your not responding to my comment and simply continuing to speak with the assumption that god exists, and ask why you would comment on a thread intended for atheists/agnostics? and please, attempts to convert are not a reasonable answer. you know as well as i do that long paragraphs about god and what he wants from us are rather ineffective tools for conversion, especially when thrown at people who unlike you, do not believe god (or at least a personal god) exists, or are skeptical about his existence.
also, i apologize to the creator of this thread for getting into a religious debate, and i hope the sources i offered to answer your original question earlier will help you out. i’m afraid i can think of no excuse, i simply have a naturally argumentative manner.
I am sorry elizabeth…. I think I did not realize the main purpose of this thread. Regardless, God does not care what this thread is for.
I did not read your post (from page two?) until now.
“i would like to repeat that the fact that you and your friend, (just like countless people before you belonging to countless different religions and gods), having a spiritual awakening and having your lives improved by religion is not proof of anything. it does not even have anything to do with the validity of your argument. i donâ€™t even know how else to put it, it is simply terrible logic, the ideas do not overlap. god isnâ€™t real because you believe he is real. god isnâ€™t the truth because you believe it is the truth. likewise, it is not the truth because fifty million people believe it is the truth. it is a way of looking at the world that deserves to be scrutinized like everything else.
in response to your second statement, again you are speaking from a highly (undeserved) superior voice. you believe you are in the â€œlightâ€, and i am in the â€œdark, because i am ashamed of my deeds? you are mistaken.
you have no right to pass judgement on my life. i live life free, happy, and compassionate to other living beings, and without fear of hell. that is hardly a dark place.”
UM, if it is that one….
Let me say that you have the right to believe whatever you want to believe and I will leave you alone, with that.
Most people enjoy discussions, on such manners, and I see that people on this thread do not and I will respect that.
Secondly, you can live without the fear, but…. you will see one day. This is why I cannot discuss this topic, I cannot debate, the only thing I can do is pray for such people. Also, you are right… miracles, and such things, God showing himself to me and other people individually, does not prove, to you, that God is real. This is because people chose not to believe it.
No offense meant to anyone, please.
This is not really an argument. If it gets that way, I would suggest that someone posts a new topic.
I still want to know about that book…. and if anyone would like to tell me about why the bible is so screwed up, email me.
This is a great topic, too bad it got hijacked.
Here’s an article I love on the subject:
It’s by Penn Jillette (of the comedy team Penn & Teller). It’s his contribution to NPR’s ‘This I Believe’ series, in which he explains his belief that there is no God. Here’s a tiny excerpt:
“Believing there’s no God means I can’t really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That’s good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.”
I just love that because his rejection of the concept of God makes him alert to and adhere to the Good. And what else is God but that?
I don’t believe life/God is knowable by our human minds. Or that you need to call it God to serve it. My understanding of that is so deep that I do not have a concept or beliefs pro or con, I’m simply present and awake, unknowing. I guess I would say I prefer living life, not living concepts.
What religion is, for the most part, is a set of concepts. People worship their concepts and ignore the human god before them. Extreme examples: those who kill in the name of their notions of God. Their less extreme brothers are those who practice some sort of thuggery in the name of religion—rejecting others, ramming their concepts/beliefs down others’ throats in the name of ‘helping’ them, etc. A lot of people call themselves atheists because they don’t believe in that, and no wonder.
shgadwa- I don’t know if it is on the library shelves yet, I know it’s available at Amazon, we haven’t heard yet if it has reached the bookstores.
You can search Debunking Christianity for more info on my husband.
I saw a debunking Christianity blog site…. is that it?? What is the name of your husband’s book?
I might possibly know him, though doubtingly… is his name Michael?
We are so pleased that Gone Raw can be an open space for a number of religions. There is a support topic for raw Christians here on Gone Raw: http://goneraw.com/forums/6/topics/2553. Please read over that forum to get a sense of what folks are attempting to do here on the raw athiest/agnostic support forum and do kindly allow them the same breathing room to support each other (this isn’t the space to engage in an argument about Christianity vs. atheims/agnostic, nor would the raw Christian support area be). We thank you for your kind support of this.
His name is John and that’s the right blog site.
elizabeth – wonderful points! and Thanks for the book suggestion:
â€œthe god delusionâ€ is a good read, as is â€œwhy darwin mattersâ€
I absolutely respect everyone’s choices regarding religion. Please respect this thread as well, and visit the Christian thread if you’d like to discuss it as Kandace suggested.
All I wanted was support and reading ideas from folks who can have nice, polite discussions about agnosticism/atheism. Thanks!!
I am sorry. I will check out the christian one. Thanks.
pulse – I appreciate your supportive comments on this thread. Thanks for stopping by!
Yes I was also hoping to not step on any toes.
I canâ€™t say Iâ€™m an atheist, but I do wonder about things. Sometimes I feel I must be an agnostic. I know that I am not â€˜religiousâ€™. I feel much more at home in this thread because I really donâ€™t know about the existence of Gods, Goddesses, or higher powers. (and I do not wish to be preached to -or vice versa).
But I admit I enjoy learning about ancient Polytheistic beliefs such as those practiced in Ancient Egypt & Greece,
I like some of the thoughts and tenets of some eastern religious and nature-based philosophies,
and I also find the video by Stewart Wilde on YouTube about letting go of the ego really fascinating.
So thank you for letting me share my two cents. Peace to all.
I will respect your religion… And you can keep it all to yourselves.
However, if I can say something, out of love and respect….please let me understand this here…
You want to encourage atheists…. and talk about books that support atheism. Understandable 100%.
I have not read any books yet about ‘debunking Christianity’ or about the bible being wrong…. but I want to do that. I am usually very busy with not much time to read. I HAVE, however, seen a lot (I mean a lot) of videos on youtube done by atheists that talk about things like, praying to a milk jug, 10 questions every Christian must answer, you are not agnostic, um…. how to convert an atheist… the list is endless.
Now then, the ‘points’ that some of these videos bring up, some of them are really good points. In which case, it is sad. Such points are, that a lot of people who call themselves Christians cannot go around healing people. Such points as that. That debate can be answered properly, regardless.
So, what I think I am trying to say, if everyone understands me correctly….is this. You want to know more about books that support your religion but you do not want to question, or ask, for an answer, to the points brought up in the book? Correct me if I am wrong.
So, if I am understanding correctly, this is a thread to encourage atheists without any answers wanted to the points that you have?
Please, I mean no offense.
Furthermore, if no one wants to talk about anything along these lines, but would rather just believe what they want to believe with no challenge, then that is fine.
I, for myself, really appreciate challenge. I like to read such books and watch such videos because if God is real, then it increases my faith in God.
Thogh maybe off topic….how on earth did you change the title three times? I did not know you could change the title of a thread.
Thanks for posting that! :) People please follow Kandances advice!
Shgadwa, I don’t mean to pick on you, but you are obviously NOT an atheist or agnositic and don’t seem to have any support to give to other agnositics or atheists so could you please move your posting over to the the Christian thread. I would really appreciate it. It seems like you are only here to push your gospel and I, for one, don’t want to read it. How could you not realize what this thread was for? Read Winona’s first post!
If some of you are wondering why someone who isn’t an agnostic or atheist would post on a thread like this is because (in my experience) some Christians see Atheists as a threat (this is how it was in my church that I grew up in) – all non-Christians are seen as potential people to “win over” to the Christian lifestyle and you are responsible for “saving” them (they have been “led astray by Satan” and it is your job to bring them back). It is almost like programmed into to in some Christain faiths.
That is why they will keep pushing and pushing what they believe onto you. It is a shame they never realize that people will not change until they want to. You can’t win someone over to your side unless they are already open to that path. How do I know? Because I have tried doing it – I used to be like shgadwa at 17. Always pushing my beliefs on others but ignoring what they say – because I thought is was my job to change them. When you are young and you haven’t experienced alot yet, you think you can change everyone in an instant. Did they change? No – because no one likes to be nagged to death on something. If you push, push, push – you will only be met with resistance.
People change at their own speed. It took me YEARS to go from the Christian lifestyle to being an atheist – not because I didn’t want to give it up because all those years of having God and church shoved down my throat I was afraid to change. That thought that I was gonna “burn in hell” if I didn’t believe was still nagging at me – It took me years to free myself of it. And no one pushed me, I came to it on my own terms – because I was curious about all those things that I was not allowed to know about when I was a young Christian.
So, for those of you that are posting on this thread hoping to convert the atheists to Christians, you have a looonnng fight ahead of you. In my case, at least, you are honestly wasting your time because I have “been there, done that” and I am now at the truth and have left the fabrication, guilt and lies behind. (when I say I have “been there, done that” – I am really serious – I was a harcore born-again Christian – I only listened to Christian rock and went to all the Christian festivals etc. – I did because others had instilled the fear in me of what would supposedly happen to me if I didn’t believe)
Winona- I found a few more sites that are good. I wish I could find that other one I was talking about but I haven’t found it yet. I was quite good – it had all these questions you get from people (normally Christians) and would give you good solid ways to answer the questions. Darn!
One of my favorite atheist sayings is “Man invented God to explain the things he did not understand.”
Don’t know if you believe in evolution but:
A support website for 4 Atheists:
I am looking forward to nice educated support and discussion with the other raw atheists and agnositics here. I also don’t mind talking a bit about some earth spirituality (non-God) and nature but please no more God and Jesus on here! Thanks guys! :)
to change the thread title, Just put your mouse next to the title of the thread. Then a little ‘edit/delete’ icon will appear. It only works if you created the thread.
I am an atheist, and pretty much always have been. I have been skimming this discussion and have done the same to the Christian thread in the past. What I don’t recall seeing in the Christian thread were any atheists trying to tell the Christians that they are wrong. I have always been fascinated by that behavior.
I’d love to hear more support and discussion from all folks interested in agnosticism/atheism. I also don’t mind a bit of earth spirituality (non-God).
Fantastic thoughts, queenfluff. It feels good to be released from all that fear, doesn’t it? I spent a good part of my life fearing sin and punishment in h*ll, it’s lovely to be free!
I am a strong liberal in politics, I believe in meditation, I believe in doing what’s best for you. I DEFINITELY believe in science and evolution. I love that wikihow thread! Fun!
I think that atheism causes me to work harder at being a better person, because I have no one to “blame” or impose responsibility upon except myself. So, over the years I have worked harder and harder to adhere to ethics that I feel strongly about. What I think is funny is that they aren’t that different from Christian and other religious beliefs. Good is good no matter where you get the idea.
Also, it is difficult to live in a religious world. No matter how good a person I am or am becoming, some cannot accept that I don’t believe in a higher power. I never want to offend anyone, as some people I care for are Christian, so I keep it to myself. It seems to offend believers when you don’t, however, I can easily respect what others believe. I have always said, “your truth is your truth.” I wish that I would receive that sentiment by more people. I forgot to mention that I live in the bible belt, so it may be different here. I am also a teacher, and am constantly amazed that there really isn’t a separation between church and state.
I had a friend that I worked with and we used to joke about some of the popular activities and organizations we had at school. One being Fellowship of Christian Athlete’s prayer at the (flag)pole meetings. We decided we were going to organize “Pagans for Peace” and see what response we got!
Thank you for your entry queenfluff.
I too find proselytizing quite invasive. It is disrespectful of the other individual’s right to their own beliefs…
There is no peace in being preached to about something that one does not believe (or wish to believe).
I posted, what I posted because I really wanted to know if my thinking was correct, and I found that it was. I was not trying to argue or anything, I needed to understand.
Good day to you all.
WINONA This thread will be wonderful it allowed to stay on track. Thanks for thinking of it.
GREEN GHOST What a great link. The statements that real knowledge is hidden and remains hidden because those with real knowledge subjugate their egos (or at least that is how I understood it). That seems spot on to me. I have heard this teaching in other ways. It is always wonderful to experience something you try to understand captured in a new way and it speaks to you.
ALIX “Haters blow.” Fantastic! I almost peed my pants when I read that.
kendra – keep your chin up, and know that we support you even if your family is less than supportive!
daniefon – Your comment hits home for me I think that atheism causes me to work harder at being a better person because I work hard to find truth and clarity. I’m surprised that religious clubs are encouraged at schools! what a challenge to be invited to bible groups. do you have a good response for them? do you feel unable to bring up your beliefs with coworkers and friends? i struggle with this, as i’d love an exchange of ideas, but i’m afraid to mention my belief in case someone tries to convert me. lol!
queenfluff mentioned that she experienced this – mention your belief, and folks see you as an opportunity to be saved.
heyenglish – i agree about the repression that occurs as a response to negative views about sex. it takes some folks years to overcome this. it also leads to high teen pregnancy rates in states like texas, where sex-ed is not taught in high schools.
I feel like I am wholly responsible for myself, my decisions, the kind of person I am, my perception, etc. I can’t say “it was god’s will”, I can’t screw up and “ask for forgiveness.” So, I work really hard to always do what is right. My perception is that many religious folks don’t live that way.
Regarding school, isn’t it crazy, there is more than one club and they “advertise” regularly and have big memberships with big cross t-shirts. The couple of times I have inquired about this, the response is that ANY reglious group can have a club. Yeah right, the parents would lose it if there was a Muslim group, or even a Jewish group. I work deep in the suburbs, where everyone is assumed to be Christian.
I hate to bring up my beliefs for several reasons. One, like you, I don’t want to be invited to church so that I can be saved from hell. I hate to offend some genuinely nice people who cannot deal with my beliefs. And, for fear of how it could affect me professionally. I absolutely stay 100 percent neutral in my teaching, I believe it is up to parents to teach their children WHATEVER religious beliefs they adhere to, not the schools’. I do share with close friends that I trust. Most people that I work with speak to everyone as if we are Christian, we must be since it is the only way!!!
I frequently hear how this country was founded on Christianity, Whaaat? I think it was founded on freedom of religion.
We still say the pledge and it says “under God”, I never, ever say it for that reason. I just pretend to be busy working on something.
Ok, I’ll step down now….........
One last thing, have you noticed that we tend to “live and let live” however, it is impossible for those professing to be saved, etc,” to adopt that way of living.
Please mention your beliefs….I would like to better understand why and how atheists….are atheists.
Starting to get the picture…..............................................
Your picture, I mean.
Shgadwa, maybe you could start a new thread specifically for those who WISH to discuss / debate both sides of this issue. Just a suggestion.
Not too sure what to call it or anything…..good idea.
Let me think of that and start a new thread once I get done listing some more eBay items here.
I work at a place that they call a “christian” company, or so they say, so I can’t really say to much while I am there. They all think I am out to lunch anyway. Because I ask for training in the company, Gee isn’t that a stupied idea? who wants their employee’s to know what they are doing.Anyway
I was once asked by a new salesman they hired (from the bosses church or course) what church I went to as soon as I said I don’t go to church, he got this weird look on his face and said ohhhhh and turned away and looked at the wall and never spoke to me again.
just what is it that they think being Christians that they can treat people like that? I did go to their little bible study that they hold every thursday, after 5 minutes I knew I was never going back. Good way to get fired.
I posted, what I posted because I really wanted to know if my thinking was correct, and I found that it was. I was not trying to argue or anything, I needed to understand._
Since when did this forum become all about your needs to understand? I see nonbelievers walking in more grace and love than you are.
I feel you Elizabethh, gloves coming off…. but I ain’t asking anyone to stop me. heh heh.
Just to recap, I jumped into this thread because:
1. I thought it was interesting,
2. because since everyone was sharing their journey in and out of atheism, I thought I’d give my viewpoint of being university educated woman by very smart atheistic free-thinkers, and having a psychology degree (like queenfluff), I was able to choose by freewill to NOT be an atheist.
Interestingly, I decided I had to have a certain level of faith to believe in the origins of the universe, evolution, science, spirituality or lack thereof because I wasn’t there to observe it all. so, i chose to happily believe in God.
It floors me to hear the stories that queenfluff, daniefon, winona, blue-eyes and others are telling. (not that I’m surprised). Again, it is absolutely insane that the very thing that one is proclaiming is nullified in ones actions
I guess I would say that I am agnostic. I was raised without religion, but my mother always brought in some kind of spirituality… always different crazy things. Many times I feel so alone without a religion. All my friends were religious and it really made me feel like an outcast at times. I almost want to be able to believe in a god, goddess or SOMETHING, just to make dealing with my issues easier. Is that CRAZY? But then I simply can’t accept any religion at all. Once I look into one, they just seem silly. I see the control and power struggles within a lot of the religious community (though not all) and it REALLY turns me off.
Lately I have found a bit of peace in Eckhart Tolle stuff (though I still haven’t read the books), but I still struggle with the want to “KNOW” that there is a higher power. I feel it is much easier for people who have blind faith, because they think and feel that they are never alone, and don’t really have to be accountable for their actions.. I dunno if I am saying this right and I definitely don’t want to offend anyone, but it is soooo nice to have a place to discuss this. Did anyone, once they left religion, struggle with feeling alone and so very MORTAL?