What is a vegan? Why is it okay for vegans to consume substances that are the product of a plants survival (seeds, fruits, fibers, etc)? Plants are living, breathing creatures, aren't they? Why, if we actually eat the plants, is it not okay to eat substances created by the bees? The survival of the human species requires consumption of living plants. For the sake of argument or explanation... Venus fly traps are classified as plants but can feel, breathe and react. Not that we eat the venus fly trap, but what is the difference? Does my lettuce feel, breathe, and react? What about an apple tree? When you pluck an apple does it hurt the tree? When you cut a flower does it sting the plant? Why do vegans extend amnesty only towards those creatures who react emotionally when slaughtered? Most animals react the way a human would when faced with death. I just don't see honey or bee pollen as a non-vegan delicacy. The bees 'steal' from the plants, we 'steal' from the bees. I guess I'm just not a vegan.

How typical that a dogmatic NH/811 person would not even know or understand what a vegan is; good luck with poisoning yourself and the world by eating dead animals while thinking yourself superior to committed, long-term vegans.

I don't understand what's going on in this thread......

But veganism is defined in many places, if someone, like the person who posted like twenty questions on post #31, wants to see what it is. You said "you guess you're not a vegan...." were you really calling yourself one without knowing what it was?

Hey, guys, I'm a tree. :) :D That's a joke. :)

Meh, this kind of bickering certainly doesn't help those looking into becoming vegetarian/vegan/raw, etc.

Yes, the standard definition of vegan excludes all animal products. And perhaps it gets tiring seeing many posts where vegan and honey are used together(I don't visit many vegan boards, so personally it isn't something I see a lot), and politely pointing out honey isn't considered vegan. (As far as honey-tarian is concerned, I think beegan is an accepted common term.) However, I think putting up with that rather than jumping on someones case is far better.

It's quite a far leap from having a little bit of honey now and then to 'meat is murder!'. I doubt many who take an active negative stance on honey never kill any bugs, use any gasoline, know where and how everything they use is made, etc. If you're just eating plants you're judging that they're a lesser lifeform than animals, or otherwise that it's more ethical to raise them to be our food. There are many groups where some people would consider themselves members while others would say they're not(religion is a prime example). And I can understand why you or others would dissociate yourselves from the differences you see, but there's often a better way than the route commonly taken.

I don't dissociate myself with someone just because they're not vegan.

And I don't think plants are a lesser life form than animals.

I also don;t disassociate with people if they are not vegan, it is their choice.

But just making the point that honey is 100% NOT vegan food.

So if you are a vegan and eat it, then you are not a vegan.
It is just a label, but your label changes to vegetarian.

Again this is the best link that explains why honey isn't vegan, and even has comments from beekeepers themselves.
http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

Bees are animals. and "Honeybees are in the phylum Arthropoda--the same as lobsters and crabs."
If you step on one by accident, it is ok. If your car hits one, that's ok too.
We need to live, breath, and be able to move to survive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthropod

We definitely need bees to survive, and if the population go low, we may need to step in and help raise the populations. Still doesn't mean that we should steal their honey though.

Also, going back to the OP, agave has a lower GI and GL, which makes it better to eat than other sugars. I don't see that mentioned anywhere in that biased article.

Going back to post #31, you could have googled vegan definition.
Animals feels pain, stand up, walk over to the nearest wall and continuously bang your head against it for 30 seconds. Now stop. Doesn't it feel good when you stop??? LOL

"Vegans endeavor not to use or consume animal products of any kind.[3]"

So it is ok to eat plant based foods, but not animal based foods.
Animals feel pain, emotions, and show intelligence.
Even the poor little bees.

BTW, you don't have to go vegan to be on a raw diet.
Some people eat raw plant foods all day and then eat a small amount of meat for dinner, or a little cheese etc.
It is a personal choice. And these are just labels and beliefs and these can/will change over time.

I love when vegans get feisty! I completely understand what a vegan is, that isn't the question. It isn't rocket science, its just another 'holier-than-thou' religion. I'm a raw vegan who occasionally eats honey and bee pollen. I inadvertantly eat insect eggs that grow on my greens and bugs I swallow when I ride my bike. Oh no! I guess I'll change my label to 'accidental carnivore'. We all understand what a vegan is. I will proudly play devil's advocate. Yes, and why is it more ethical to raise plants for food? Because they don't look sad when going to the slaughter. I am not denying that a raw plant based diet is the optimal way to eat. I guess its more of a philosophical question.

you love it when vegans "get feisty"? which in your case appears to be defined as "feisty=makes a post on a message board that i want to argue with even though i am wrong by every single definition that exists"

ah, now i see why you're here. it's a non-vegan feisty troll. "feisty" in this case defined as "argumentative" and "seemingly wants to argue for plants rights but if you look further, just wants to plain argue about anything."

Good points powerlife and the_chumara. It's easy for a bee keeper to see how much the little bees need- they eat very small amounts of honey- most of it sits in the hive not being used. The honey I have got is taken from wild hives by tribes people in Africa- they are in tune with their environment and wouldn't leave the bees to starve- this is one of their fair traded incomes so it would be stupid of them to take ALL the honey and let the bees die of hunger and have no bees, hives and lose an income. These people are from shamanic/Earth tradition cultures who take as little from their environments as possible.

I haven't posted anything, but I have been following this thread. It just seems to me that superfood and rawcanadian are taking a "life is black and white" stance. Life is not black and white. It is full of color, and we all make the best choices we can every day. I think someone who eats 99% vegan with the occasional honey can call themselves vegan. I'm not going to quote statistics because I think the actual argument is very petty. Making the claim that someone is not vegan because they eat honey once a month is very petty, and does not encourage people to venture into veganism. Au contraire, it pushes people away because normal people can see vegans as snobby because there are a lot of snobby vegans/vegetarians... *cough*
I also think that by rule the board is vegan, but by spirit it is an embracing, compassionate, and friendly community. I don't think some people on this board are necessarily following the spirit, merely the rule. And it is those who follow the spirit that make me want to come back and follow the threads.

I see colors just fine, thanks. I embrace people who venture to try to harm the least amount of animals as possible. I don't see *myself* how going to a store to buy an empty-calorie sweetener is within that realm, but hey, if it suits you to eat honey, then do so. It's still not vegan, though, no matter how much you want it to be.

If you want to live a life that includes continuous use of inaccurate words/descriptions, then I'm sure you will think that someone who tries to speak intelligently is "snobby" [sic].

I don't know what in the world you mean by "normal people" but I'm a vegan because I care about animals, not because I want "normal people" to think certain things about me or about veganism. LOL