Heyllo =] I'm pretty much new. I began high raw 2 weeks ago, kind of falling off the raw wagon, but i'm going back to extra-high raw tomorrow.
I call it "extra" high because I can't give up meat. My body needs it, i'm convinced. I wish I didn't have to say that, but after reading "Born to run", reading about how man is hairless and pore-filled to sweat enough to support long distance running, hearing how the tribes of the Kalahari desert run for hours after wild game until the game collapses out of exuastion changed my entire idea of man eating meat.
I was vegetarian once, and over the course of 2 years vegetarian I grew severely depressed and fatigued.. I tried everything.
So I am convinced that I am the type of person who needs the occasional morsel of meat. Now i'm curious, is it possible to receive all these wonderful health benefits and amazing bursts of energy and clear-mindedness whilst eating meat once to twice a week?
If you had to eat meat how often would you do it? I'm planning on eating cooked, and occasionally sashimi, because i'm not rich enough to afford suitable raw beef or tons of sashimi grade fish..
What kinds do you think would be best for keeping my body 'cleansed'? And what the heck is wrong with raw meat in the first place?
Although this article is not particularily good, because there is no solid proof, this is the 'theory' that i'm referring to. http://www.physorg.com/news95954919.html
The tribe of the Kalahari desert still runs down their prey... although like all other tribes they are being disrupted by urbanization, civilization.. but it's proof enough for me that they are still able to.
There is no need for meat in ANY humans' diet. I don't really care what that article says, anyone can type "why is meat good" into Google and wait for a million useless links to come up. It is very much possible to survive and thrive on a raw vegan/vegetarian diet. You just have to do it correctly.
Vagabond, I'm vegetarian and this is a vegan site. So, I will try to be honest, yet keep the conversation appropriate for this site. As far as health studies go, the healthiest people are people who eat predominately a plant based diet (that does not mean it must be animal product free, but not animal product heavy). The longest living people (a town in Japan, name slips from me at the moment) eat that way.
This IS a vegan site, so I won't wax heavy on virtues of animal products. So, in answer to your question- yes, just keep your diet mostly plant based, and high raw. Whether you completely elimate animal products is more of a personal choice, imo not a health choice. One can be a very healthy vegan, vegetarian or omnivore.
Since this is a vegan site, I would like to recommend that you check out the "vegetarian and beyond" site for some conversation about your type of questioning. http://www.beyondveg.com/
Unfortunately, they don't have a forum.
It's run by a vegetarian, but there are many articles along the lines of your questioning. I don't agree with every article on their site, but it has many interesting articles none the less. It's good to question the party line imo sometimes.
Some of their humor is not for the easily offended vegan or vegetarian.
I do eat some animal products (vegetarian now, was vegan for a short while), so I come here for my plant based conversations. But, for stuff out of the vegan range, you may want to consult other fourms for advice.
You're neglecting the fact you dont run for hours for your meat. If you did I'm sure you would be counteracting any meat you had and lets face it, a tribe sharing maybe one gizelle (or whatever it is) That isnt loads, it's not processed, reared for humans, pumped with steroids. The tribe sound more native, so they are probably able to eat this food.
You cant apply their situation to your own I'm afraid. You're raw meat would be from lame animals that are reared in boxes for humans, I don't recommend meat and I definitly dont recommend it if it was reared for humans or even wild but shot by a gun. The point I'm making is that one native group dont attest for all humans.
If you think that is backs your situtation, go off, be natural, after all you like the idea of raw so must believe in the natural way of living, so if thats what you strive for, go catch some game for your tea with your bare hands a teeth.
I'm not being nasty, Im speaking plain.
P.S I watch a documentry about a similar grouo, they ate the meat raw and drink its blood for a treat. Your raw meat will be cleaned and prepared for you.
I'm not saying meat, in the society that we live in, is a good thing. I'm just saying that I now believe that it was an important part of our evolution. I wouldn't eat meat in our society if i didn't think I had to, especially cooked, unfresh meat. I just think all meat shouldn't be shunned, because my guess is that raw meat isn't so bad for us humans. I'm not saying meat is good, because of what they probe our meat with and it's not fresh, raw, and we don't work for it.
I just thought it was an interesting fact. I believe meat should only be eaten if caught by bare hands and eaten while still warm. No extreme sides here, just thought it was a piece of information I hadn't thought of before. I'm not trying to push anything on anybody, sisterbecky. o_o What happened to freedom of expression, and these are not my 'virtues', i'm still discovering what's best for my body. I guess you could say i'm wandering around in opinion, I just wanted to know who has heard of this, and your opinions. Maybe i'm touchy but I really don't like being told what's appropriate and what's not when once again, I had the illusion of freedom of speech.
RawEverything, I heard about it and immediately bussed 2 hours out to buy it. Already on my second read >=]
"I was vegetarian once, and over the course of 2 years vegetarian I grew severely depressed and fatigued.... So I am convinced that I am the type of person who needs the occasional morsel of meat"
---I don't think it's possible that lack of meat could cause depression (in my humble opinion). I would guess that you just really missed it and wanted it, rather than **needed** it to feel alright.
---sv3, I agree. Sisterbecky is always so wise, tactful and helpful :-)
"Maybe i'm touchy but I really don't like being told what's appropriate and what's not when once again, I had the illusion of freedom of speech."
--- Like sisterbecky said, it is a *Vegan* forum, so I would try not to take it personally if meat questions aren't met with the best reception. You also have the right to go to Pat Robertson's website and ask for recommendations for a good abortion doctor, but I'm thinking that you won't get happy responses there. Not trying to be mean.
Check out this post, especially what Kandace had to say :
I am sorry, but the thought of eating raw meat is just *BLECH*!
Why are there posts like this on here?
Is there another raw VEGAN forum around to chat about raw VEGAN concerns?
I love this site, it's great for recipes, but I would love to find more of a raw VEGAN community that is without people coming on, and for some reason having to announce to a bunch of VEGANS how they must have eggs, milk and meat in their diet.
I mean, good for you, eat whatever you want, but I honestly just don't care!
Nor do I care for coming onto a VEGAN site to having to read about it.
I am not trying sound like a kvetch, but enough is enough!
My intentions were not to keep you from expressing your views, or to tell you what was appropriate on the site. I was just prefacing my answer (that yes, I felt you could eat healthy even though you eat meat) with an aknowledgement that I realize this is a vegan site and truly felt you might get more information from the site I suggested. I'm not at all offended by "meat talk," but as you can see from some of the other posts, many are. I was simply offering up to you a resource that you might find helpful. I think it's great that you are exploring what makes you the healthiest. As I said, I know many healthy omnivores, and wish you the best if that is the path that suits you.
I never think of meat, and never eat it!! I wake up every morning thinking of eating fresh fruit , mmm fresh raspberries and apples:) I just had that for breakfast. I can totally survive without eating meat, I dont crave that at all!! Its amazing what fruit does to your body, it gives you all the energy you need and wakes you up in the morning:D I love being a raw vegan!!!
I don't think it's so bad talking about meat on a vegan site... I'm a semi-vegetarian because it's healthiest for me. I've found that my body, skin, and mind are better if I incorporate wild fish and organic eggs in my diet. I don't eat it all the time but, for me, a WHOLE foods diet is best (nothing processed) - it's not anything to be ashamed of. We all have to do what's best for ourselves, right? Right ;)
superfood, this is the same flawed logic that you employed in our discussion a while back. She's not saying that eggs and fish are the only way to keep her body, skin and mind at their best. Other animal products might bring about similar improvements. Wild fish and eggs are the healthiest animal products to consume, they're more humane than most other animal foods, and maybe she just prefers them.
Vagabond, I think your question was a very valid one. It's obvious, with the way you wrote it out, that you were simply asking our opinion. I don't see anything wrong with coming on to a vegan website and asking why we are vegan in order to find your own path to health. I think most of us on here can agree that's what part of being on a high raw food diet is about, not following the normal paths and taking the extra step to think about we are putting in our bodies.
I do agree with others that every human can thrive on a vegan diet. Both depression and fatigue can be due to a lack of B vitamins. It's also possible you weren't getting enough iron. You have to be careful on ANY diet to balance everything out and make sure you're getting the nutrients you need. If you really want to try raw vegan I would give it another go and make sure you are consuming plenty of variety and including all of your vitamins and minerals. Dark greens, nutritional yeast (not raw but you only need about 1 tablespoon for your daily RDA of b-12), sprouts, chia seeds, and nuts might help.
I don't think consuming meat once or twice a week is enough to make a difference in your energy. In fact, if you're sticking to a raw food diet the rest of the time, you might find you can't really digest the meat very easily. If you do decide to consume meat, and you want any benefits you think you might get from it, I would at least consume it raw. This way you're not denaturing the protein and it will have some enzymes in it to help you break it down. I wouldn't do this more than once a week. Even more specific I would try to make it raw fish rather than meat. I can't think of any particular benefit of eating red meat. Whereas, fish, if it's the right kind, has the benefits of omega-3s (not that you can't those from plants sources). You might find that once you start eating high raw and only have meat once a week you don't miss it and will eventually drop it from your menu.
If the reason you miss meat is for the flavor and mouth feel, once you fill your body with plenty of fresh fruits and vegetables you'll experience new wonderful flavors. The "taste memory" of meat will become a thing of the past. Just as some people think they can't live without grains or coffee at first but have been able to give it up, they're have been plenty that find they can live without meat. I had a customer the other day who was baffled by the idea of not consuming dairy. She could not fathom it, but my guess is, after several weeks or months without it, and realizing the benefits of not consuming it, dairy will be a thing of her food past.
Of course, it's not all about what we're NOT consuming, but what we ARE consuming. Will you still experience amazing energy and clarity of mind whilst consuming meat once a week? Well, the other six days of the week you will be eating high volumes of fruits and vegetables and by default high amounts of fresh water, antioxidants, enzymes, vitamins, minerals.....all in their purest form. So, yes, you should notice your energy levels go up and your health, by all common sense, will be better off than if you were not consuming mostly raw vegan foods.
I do hope you will give the high raw vegan diet a go again. Just remember to really pay attention to the nutrients you're putting in and focus on the wonderful things you CAN and SHOULD eat. Remember, we're here to help you along. : ) I hope you'll continue to ask questions about your health, your body, and how you should treat it. It's becoming a lost art in the world. Don't let those that frown upon your questions....whether they be doctors, health nuts(myself included), or any person discourage you from searching for answers. Good luck and peeeeeace!
Interesting, I though that all those ruits and veggies had a calming effect on people, but obviously I was mistaken...
I don't think it is a sin to ask about what constitute heatlhy food in a vegan or in any other health-oriented site for that matter. I prefer to believe that raw food promotes open minds and peace, and no sectarian and judgemental attitudes.
Come on people, how can a simple question about meat can be so insulting that you can't even talk about it without getting upset?????? It doesn't make any sense.
I see your point, rawlizard, and I was not insulted by vagabond's post, but just pointing out that this is an issue that has come up before, and that many people on this site have been very clear in stating that they don't approve of, or appreciate, the meat discussions.
Vagabond seemed to be insulted when sisterbecky gently brought this up, so I just wanted to avoid an ugly conversation on here.
Here's what Kandace said:
"Gone Raw is, first and foremost, a place for raw, vegans to gather and encourage each other. We'll definitely take note of requests to make the vegan part more obvious. When we first encountered raw foods way back when, we were under the impression that all raw was vegan and therefore didn't do a lot to differentiate. We know much more now.
As far as who is taking part in Gone Raw - postings that are encouraging folks to add meat to their diets are inappropriate for a site like this. If you see them, please use the "mark as abuse" link. While the wording sounds harsh, it does help us keep the posts topical."
Heres the truth...You should not have made a post about meat on a vegan site. Not to mention very few people here know anything about eating raw animal products. However if you want more info on eating raw meat than just email my friend...He does it on a regular basis. Heres his email he will gladly answer any questions. email@example.com
Rawgrapefruit, I agree, I can see Raw Lizards and Renee's points. Maybe your wording was better in explaining what I was trying to express to Vagabond. I believe this conversation is very interesting, and important. But, once you start questioning "veganism" it does beg the question- why are we talking about it on a vegan site? I think this is a somewhat common problem for people who are struggling with veganism. You come back to "your people" for advise. But, you are also questioning something that is almost sacred to some. That's not always met with a good reception. I can somewhat understand that, people don't go to a vegan site to have their beliefs questions. It's kind of a no win situation. I do hope Vagabond emails Fruit Noms friend, or checks out some other resources that may help her.
Depression and such can be severe and nothing to snub our noses at. I realize this isn't a site to promote animal products on, but I view people as animals too (at least biologically we are) , and I believe our compassion needs to extend to them as well. I believe in animal rights, but it still worries me when someone is not thriving on a vegan or vegetarian diet. It seems ethical to me to take their health into consideration too.
I agree with raw lizard. Why does a question about meat upset so many here? Honestly it's one of the turn offs I have about this website. You would think as vegetarians/vegans everyone here would be more open minded to help someone rather then make them feel stupid for asking questions. I find it contradictory that ones can go out of their way to show concern for animals yet have less concern for fellow human beings.
The only thing a plant based diet cant give you that meat does is B12, so you will probably need to supplement with a sublingual supplement.
If you were getting ill without meat try to incorporate as much amino acid rich foods such as sprouts, nuts etc as that is likely why you were needing the meat. Also foods rich in vitamin D as that tends to be low on vegan/plant based diets.
Seaweeds are rich in protein, the full essential amino acids and iodine which is commonly low also. Meat a few times a week wont kill you and you'll still recieve most of the benefits of being raw via your increased raw intake.
There is one point that seems to fly over heads and that is many of us are not vegans for vanity of health or for trying to be thin, but because we have a sensitivity, care and concern for the lives of animals.
Animal rights is still a very important part of the social justice movement as is veganism as a protest against the mass slaughter of animals.
I am not going on all the meat gorging sites preaching veganism, why do meat eaters feel so compelled to come onto our sites and make repeated moronic statements like:
"And what the heck is wrong with raw meat in the first place?" (or eggs, dairy, or whatever other animal product they feel they must inflict on vegans)
Well, a lot! Besides being incredibly disgusting, inhuman and filthy and animal product industries exploit their workers, you're on a VEGAN site, and it's RUDE!
i suggest to those of you who still 'feel the need' to eat it take time to watch the documentary "Earthlings" or the video "Meet Your Meat".
Some great books on the subject:
"The China Study" (the longest "Nutrition Study" ever conducted. It is actual evidence NOT theory)
"Vegan Freak", and "The World Peace Diet".
And BTW: You are not eating "meat" (oh what a quaint little word to make one feel comfy and cozy in their duplicity of cruelty, world pollution and starvation).
No, my friend, you are eating dead, rotting flesh (and feces) from an animal that lived it's entire life in pain, abuse, desperation, and fear since drawing a breath.)
After studying anthropology I have learned that you are correct that we need some meat. our brains and body function best on the nutrients that are provided from meat. And our large brains need high amounts of protien most easily attained through animal and processed by our bodies.That is not to say that we should be eating animals cruelly raised on foods that are not appropriate to their design. The healthiest meat is caribou. Highest in vitamins and minerals. Also (I know I'm going to be crucified for this) but I support responsible hunting. Animals that are allowed to roam free eat natural vegetation, and live a "normal" life for that animal. And should only be taken if you plan to eat and use what you take.
That being said; following the way of a nomad diet would be healthiest. This means you would not always have meat to eat and always eating seasonal raw foods.
We developed disease when we settled down and began eating a limited diet of things we planted. No variety in your diet, is like mating with your brother/sister.
The key words are responsible, seasonal and what we are designed to process. Of coarse you can survive without meat, but if you choose to eat it, always best to do so responsibly.
You are going to have to listen to your body. It is amazing how some people on an all-natural diet encourage veganism, then go out and consume an artificial b-12 supplement. I am convinced genetic differences account for our differences in diet, too.
Please read Jordan Rubin's book Raw Truth--he compares vegan and non-vegan diet side by side, and even encourages drinking of goat's milk, an idea that has saved me more than once.
To those who think captive animals are cruel, please consider certain animals cannot be released into the wild, and require symbiosis with humans. The wild boar would overrun New Zealand if it was not hunted each year. Pickled salmon is not cooking, yet is non-vegan, so we must learn to separate fad from fiction. RAW and VEGAN are two words tacked onto each other, not mutually exclusive. And most vegans eat honey, which is NEVER cruelty-free.
Quasi-religious reasoning is in ignorance of truth, and NEVER logical. Nor will zealotry win the day over what our bodies require. If sleep killed kitties would you stop?
Hunt wild, eat free-range. I am more concerned with how an animal lived than how it died.
I'd just like to point out that it is compeltely possible to have a healthy, high protein, low simple carbohydrate vegan diet and compete successfully as an athlete. Brendan Brazier is an Ironman Triathlete and several folks in the competitive running community have switched to a well-planned, non-processed vegan diet and have been doing very well. In fact, the Seattle Seafair Torchlight 8k was just won by a spokesperson for Vega (Brendan Brazier's line), and I watched him smoke a lot of fast people on a tough course by a good minute. The key is a lot of leafy greens and vegetables with moderate fruit, legume, seed, sprout, and pseudograin intake. I've been working very hard at becoming fit and active, and my husband is a competitive runner and find more energy with live, whole foods. Many athletes including some bodybuilders (there's a website/forum dedicated to this) have switched to a vegan lifestyle.
My motto is live and let live - beating someone over the head with a belief won't make them adopt it. But, that being said, veganism is a lifestyle choice for most of us, not just a dietary election. A forum dedicated to vegan topics would indicate that meat/animal product related posts aren't going to be well received. It's a matter of respect.