No, rawlizard, what you say is absolutely true. Carnivores must kill animals to survive, but people were meant to be vegetarians, so we shouldn’t eat meat. However, other animals do, which is completely natural.
Tomsmom wrote: “Pffft. What a tirade. You are full of nonsense. Youâ€™re also being whining and ridiculous, not to mention unbelievably rude. You donâ€™t rent the server to host this site, do you? This is a raw vegan site. You knew it before you made the first post. No one is out to “get” the meat-eaters. Now, I realize that being a meat-eater, youâ€™re apt to be paranoid and constipated, but whining isnâ€™t going to help you make poopy.
In addition, your arguments are ridiculous and uneducated. Blah, blah, blah, blah. You sound like an angry child. Why get upset when your intention was to stomp your feet in the first place? Youâ€™re not new, here. Itâ€™s obvious.”
Wow, sounds like you’re describing yourself, Tomsmom. Why don’t you try to disprove what keelamwri said instead of just throwing insults.
keelamwri – Been eating meat for the last couple months. I was 100% raw vegan for 6 months before that, but after I saw Gabriel Cousens talk about B12 , that scared teh crap out of me, so I went back to one of my favorite foods (sashimi), and I’ve never felt better.
This site is a raw, vegan site. Our home page (when not logged in) states:
Gone Raw is a website created to help people share and discuss raw, vegan food recipes from around the world…Why Raw Vegan? Because we love and appreciate our foods natural and fresh. We enjoy being creative and original as we manifest a lifestyle that is healthy and abundant for all.
We understand that not everyone here is going to be 100% vegan (or 100% raw) and respect that choice. However, this site is here to support that part of your life that is raw, vegan. Hopefully, each of you can respect our right to have a site that supports this lifestyle.
Kevlar-spot on with Tomsmom. haha
kandace – I appreciate and respect that, but a little friendly debate never hurts.
RawKidChef wrote: “The one thing that still baffles me is that our ancestors (Neanderthals, Homo erectus, etc), to my knowledge, were omnivores eating lots of raw meat, eggs, and fish, and I believe vegetables as well. The reason this doesnâ€™t make any sense is because our closest relatives, gorillas, apes, etc, eat a completely vegan diet of fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds. So, based on the pH of people and the fact that our closest relatives are vegans, means that we were meant to eat vegan food as well.”
It doesn’t make sense because our closest relatives are chimpanzees, and they’re most definitely not vegans. They eat insects, birds, other monkeys, pigs, antelope, and even each other, although their diet does consist mostly of fruit.
No truth exists about human diet. Our diet is socially constructed and people who understand that go by whatever works best at a point in time based on a value-based priority system. This system and whatever works best changes over time and during different seasons. So trying to “spread the truth” whether it is about meat eating or veganism is a waste of time. Discussing what works best, when and why, is more helpful for people investigating the diet and trying to make decisions based on information. Science is not truth either, so even studies are fallible. This is why discussions of this sort are problematic. Nobody really knows. Things are too complex to unravel in a discussion forum.
Here’s another interesting point. If we humans were “in the wild” per say, we would be so different from other herbivores because despite the fact that we don’t have really sharp teeth or claws we actually have an intelligent mind that allows us to improvise. That is why we are where we are today. We know how to create tools that allow us to eat anything we want.
So we aren’t in any way like the gorillas because even if they didn’t eat all the meat that they eat they don’t have a mind like ours at all.
Hey RawKid… Please don’t get me wrong, I agree with most of what you said, but actually, chimps actively hunt other monkeys and eat them. Interestingly, they not only do it when they NEED to (as in if other food sources are low) but they do it even when they have other food available even though organized hunting missions expend LOTS more energy than foraging. It seems to be an aspect of chimp culture, expressions of hierarchy etc.
Also, it’s better to look at the most recent COMMON ancestor of modern apes (that is the ape that orangutans, gorillas, chimps, and humans can ALL call our ancestor. If you just look at our ‘cousin species’ lots of evolutionary static gets thrown in the mix.
As far as I know, our most recent common ancestor was an herbavor. Also, in most human groups until the ‘modern’ world, animals were killed and eaten only when absolutely necessary. For people in cold climates, this meant every day, and in other climates next to never. It makes perfect sense when you ask the question “what is the least amount of work I can do to survive?”
Tomsmom: Now, I realize that being a meat-eater, youâ€™re apt to be paranoid and constipated, but whining isnâ€™t going to help you make poopy.
Our bodies have a good system to maintain our slightly alkaline pH level. Any harm to the body whether it’s a low oxygen supply or being stressed out can affect that level. Maintaining the proper pH level is more about proper balance. Not just eating alkaline foods. A little bit of meat is NOT going to make your pH level change by that much if at all. We have other foods to balance it out if eat too much as well.
There are vegan foods that are acidic in nature too. Nuts, seeds, and some fruits such as blueberries and tomatoes for example. Are we not meant to be eating them just because they are acidic? Stating that we are not meant to eat meat just because the pH of most vegetables/etc are alkaline is a weak argument.
If you truly want to persuade people to follow a vegan lifestyle, try to focus more on what our society will benefit from and other positive aspects. Bashing meat eaters, unsupported claims, and scare tactics aren’t going to get you very far.
I do believe that most of our diet should be based on plants/etc, but my diet is also based on what’s truly natural in order to get my proper nutrients. That’s why a little bit of milk, fish, and other foods are a part of my diet. How else would someone be getting there B12 in nature? I don’t see B12 supplements growing wild in any parts of the world. That’s going from what I’ve heard at least.
I also believe that a vegan diet can truly be very sustainable and healthy in the world of today amongst other positive aspects. It’s quite possible that a vegan diet is an even healthier choice versus an omnivore diet. That is through advancements such as supplementation though. Arguing that a strict plant based diet was exceptionally sustainable for the human race is a weak claim IMO. If you’re throwing bugs and other things into the mix then you’ve got something to argue for but… How many of us are actually going to eat like that though? Can that truly be considered vegan?
I think we need a new category for those who pursue a diet like that. If you’re taking the all-natural ancestral type diet thing to the extreme then more power to you. Too much restriction and emphasis on diet alone when you start heading that way though IMO. Whether an ancestral diet is more beneficial to us is unknown as well. Just because our ancestors ate a certain way doesn’t necessarily mean that it is the most beneficial for us. Especially in the world of today. Mixed ancestry, earth changes, and individual viewpoints are just a few things that will likely not allow an “ancestral diet” to be sufficient.
I feel like coming on here and trying to say that meat isn’t bad for you is trying to turn Atheists into Catholics.
Keelamwri, why do you feel the need to tell people the “TRUTH”?
How do you know these things to be truth? Do any of us REALLY know the truth?
Stop acting like you’re God, please. It’s annoying.
No truth exists about human diet. Our diet is socially constructed and people who understand that go by whatever works best at a point in time based on a value-based priority system. This system and whatever works best changes over time and during different seasons. So trying to â€œspread the truthâ€ whether it is about meat eating or veganism is a waste of time. Discussing what works best, when and why, is more helpful for people investigating the diet and trying to make decisions based on information. Science is not truth either, so even studies are fallible. This is why discussions of this sort are problematic. Nobody really knows. Things are too complex to unravel in a discussion forum.
That is very true and insightful redhouse. A debate like this could go on forever and will not provide us all with the answers we need. When you’re digging deep into things such as these, there is just too much to take into consideration. Guidelines may help, but they’re not gonna get you everywhere. People need to find what works best for them. As simple (and difficult) as that.
James3112 you are right – our bodies are very efficient at maintaining a proper blood pH level.
But the key word that you mention and I think really really really needs to be emphasized for all of us is BALANCE.
When one consumes too much meat, dairy, and over-processed grains... their body often removes minerals from their bones to maintain a balanced blood pH. It might not be a big deal each time one eats, but it definitely can add up – especially if those minerals are not being replaced.
addendum/edit – it has been documented in study after study that the countries with the greatest consumption of dairy & meat also have the highest incidents of osteoporosis.
Personally I know that I destroyed my bones and broke my back by getting WAY too much animal protein before my fractures. I was constantly consuming whey protein drinks with cowâ€™s milk (not the raw kind either), rarely getting greens, and exercising like an absolute maniac.
If I can serve as a cautionary tale and stop even ONE person from breaking their back (or any other bones) I will be really happy and maybe I will understand why I had to go through that in order to wake up.
I also do not wish to judge others for their dietary habits
- suffice to say that those who eat meat should try to:
1. Not just from an ethical standpoint, but from a health and environment-friendly standpoint eat only free range, pasture raised farm-animals, NOT factory farmed.
Itâ€™s simply the most sensible way all around for people who eat an omnivore diet.
2. Try to be Balanced (this applies to everyone) with their diet choices as well as with other aspects of their lives.
It is a different journey for each of us.
Great ideas everyone! I didn’t realize chimps were omnivorous! How interesting! :)
Message to meganthevegan:
To answer your first question megan, the reason why I feel compelled to tell the â€œtruthâ€ is the same reason many vegans do: to inform and enlighten. This is supposed to be an open forum with people who offer their thoughts, opinions and insights, which is exactly what I am doing. No one said anything to or about zoe when she made her post on â€œwhy meat is bad for usâ€. She seems so knowledgeable on the subject many people who read it will simply take it at face value, especially when no one else has offered a different perspective.
No one had posted on this topic for months until I offered my insight on the subject. My goal was not to make people angry or upset but to simply see how people would react and respond when exposed to information that they might not have been aware of even if it might challenge their previous beliefs.
In response to your second question, how do any of us know anything is the truth? All we can go by is what we see with our eyes and hear with our ears. Sometimes were wrong and sometimes were right but either way, people, including myself, are going to still continue share their thoughts, insights, and knowledge with other people. This is what forums are all about.
As for your religious statement, Im not trying to â€œactâ€ like anything and I am not trying to convert anybody. How is saying â€œmeat isnâ€™t bad for youâ€ the same as trying to convert Atheists into Catholics? I have never said nor implied that people should eat meat or animal products. In fact I have made it very clear throughout my posts that I really donâ€™t care what you eat.
Many people read these forums and post and find new information that hopefully opens their minds and encourages them to seek out even more information for themselves. This helps them to make more informed and sound decisions when choosing or considering a new avenue of diet and nutrition.
Oh, god, pseudo-intellectualism rears its boring head. Keelamwri claims he posted to see reactions and to enlighten people to the truth. All hail to . . . zzzzz . . .
For someone who finds my posts to be such a bore you certainly have made it a point to read through every single last one of them thoroughly havent you? Im sorry if my â€œpseudo-intellectualismâ€ is too much for you to comprehend but Im afraid I donâ€™t speak DUMB so your just going to have to deal with it.
Why are you so obsessed with me? ALL of your comments, ever since you started posting here, are towards me and none of them relate to the topic at hand. If your that tired then go take a nap and come back when youâ€™re a mature adult like the rest of us. If your bored then go watch t.v. or something but posting for the sole purpose of antagonizing me is pointless and highly childish, not to mention weird, which makes sense because so are all your comments.
How old are you anyway, 5? Who on earth says things like â€œpoopyâ€? LOL, wow! Youâ€™ve got some serious issues!
Can’t we all just get along?? ha ha. I believe in live and let live. Sorry for the cliches, but sometimes….
No truth exists about human diet. Our diet is socially constructed and people who understand that go by whatever works best at a point in time based on a value-based priority system. This system and whatever works best changes over time and during different seasons.
I do not eat meat (haven’t for 25 years), however, I have to agree with redhouse. I can easily be vegan living in NYC, but other people may not be able to make that choice depending on where they live and their culture. For example, look at the Inuits. They eat whale meat and blubber in order to survive. They would not survive on a raw vegan diet in their climate. In the end, I also agree that the jury is still out about what is “truth.” about diet. Human beings are not one size fits all. This is not to say that I am not passionate about my beliefs; but that’s what they are-my beliefs.
Keelamwri- if eating meat works for you, congratulations on justifying your stance. As far as simply coming on this site to “educate” and “enlighten” the rest of us here, we are all highly capable of garnering information from our everyday lives in society that bombard us with the supposed “advantages and benefits” of eating meat. Therefor, not only are you intentionally and blantantly disregarding this website’s owners’ generosity and rules, but your information is not needed, as we hear what you are preaching everyday already. It might be advantageous for you to find another website that will welcome what you have to preach… or simply start your own.
Why do you guys keep thinking that Iâ€™m trying to justify eating meat? I KNOW you guys are vegans. I KNOW you donâ€™t eat meat and I donâ€™t want you to. And Iâ€™m not trying to get you to see why I eat meat! The only reason why I even mentioned it was because topcat did in his first post. I wanted to inform HIM and people like HIM, because HE was the one who asked the question. On top of that, the post that zoe left made me want to respond to her too. Thatâ€™s why I left those links so that SHE could see for herself (thatâ€™s if she even still reads this forum). As well as anyone else who cared to look.
The post I made after that was just a response to TWO people who responded to my first post. Thatâ€™s all. Iâ€™m not trying get people to see the â€œbenefit of eating meatâ€. Where did you even get that from? Iâ€™m not trying to get you guys to â€œsee it my wayâ€ or whatever you think I trying to do. All of my posts were only meant to address those people who responded to my earlier posts, as well as the first two people I mentioned. They were not ment to address you ASPIRE! And stop saying that Iâ€™m â€œdisregardingâ€ the rules here. Thereâ€™s no rule that says I cant respond to other peopleâ€™s posts, especially since they responded to mine.
Man, you vegans really need to tone it down on all the hostility. And if you donâ€™t like the topic of discussion then instead of constantly replying and responding to my earlier posts why not just start a NEW topic for a change?
“I feel like coming on here and trying to say that meat isnâ€™t bad for you is trying to turn Atheists into Catholics.”
I find this sentence amusing (and probably true). As a former catholic, and a former atheist, I now find myself a happy agnostic. Both in religion, and the metaphorical sense of diet.
I really like the idea of raw veganism. It is very appealing to me. I like the idea of a smaller carbon footprint, a more sustainable life style for the planet, and the simplicity of eating raw plant based foods is very appealing.
I also think that the factory farms, especially the meat and dairy industries are terrible blights on the planet and not in my personal best interest as far as health is concerned.
However, I don’t necessarily believe that raw veganism is the one true path for man. The genus Homo, to which we all belong, has never existed on a vegan diet. Ever. As a species. There may have been periods where isolated tribes may have been largely vegitarian/vegan, but these were the exceptions not the rule. Our species has distinctly evolved to eat animal products, and has done so for millennia. However there is a big difference between eating a hunter/gatherer diet or paleo-style diet and SAD. And this difference was ignored in the China Study. I read the china study, and agree with its critics. It is not generalizeable from that study to say meat is bad for humans. I have a doctorate in research methodology, and have been spending a lot of time trying to work out this diet thing, and I’ll tell you, I agree that eating factory raised meat is probably bad. Eating milled grains and roots may not be the best choice we can make. But I am unconvinced that eating grass fed pastured beef or wild caught game meats are bad for us if prepared correctly. I challenge anyone to produce evidence of this that is based on solid science.
To be honest, though I care about the idea of sustainable lifestyles and treating animals with compassion and respect, the bottom line for me is personal health. It is VERY natural to have a sense of self preservation. To me this means that eating animal products may be part of the solution. I am not sure if it is. I have not figured out all of the puzzle yet.
If I find I can thrive on a 100% raw vegan diet I will be thrilled, but I have not seen adequate evidence yet that it can be done by most, never mind all people, and I especially don’t know if I can thrive on it myself. This is important to me. For me quality of life begins with health, and then extends to other choices, such as the desire to live in harmony with animals.
Now, despite this, I am making an effort to really learn where my dietary limits are regarding raw veganism. I am interested in a living foods diet, and am starting to sprout my own legumes and seeds (no nuts though), growing my own wheatgrass, and eating all but 2 meals per week as a raw vegan. These two meals have varied to include cheese, shrimp, sushi, chicken, steamed frozen veggies, and other non-raw vegan foods, as that is what I have been craving, and so I felt better to allow these foods than to return to eating SAD after failing to maintain a 100% raw vegan diet. I am also absolutely convinced that a diet made up largely from the living foods principles is one which would benefit most people, and I definitely feel that it is likely for me, and I look forward to seeing how far I can push this as I learn more about how I respond to different food choices. My results after just 6-7 weeks of this, I have lost over 25 pounds (I need to lose more,. so this is good), my blood sugar has stablized, my blood pressure has dropped from 130/90 to 100/65, and I get some bloodwork done tomorrow to check on cholesterol, triglicerides, etc, and am expecting a lot of improvement of my overall blood chemistry. Not to mention that I have more energy, get more done, and feel better physically, mentally and emotionally.
Of course, I am only managing 90% raw veganism.
So, how do I view my food experiment as one of agnosticism? I do not dearly hold onto meat, nor the idea of eliminating it. I do not dearly hold on to raw or cooked. I do believe that many raw foods are better for you than cooked ones, and that there are some foods when gently cooked that are more healthful than raw. I also think that I don’t know the answer as to which diet is best, nor do I think I ever can know that answer. As a trained scientist though, I keep an open mind, and am constantly re-evaluating new evidence, both theoretical and empirical, and conducting experiments on myself and observing to evaluate the results. Even just trying to isolate a couple simple things with one person with no interest in generalizing to others is a near impossible task.
I do applaud keelamwri though, as he/she is willing to put forth theories that might be deemed unpopular here. It is in my best interest as an individual to hear all sides of the issues, and explore all competing theories. Survival of the fittest as applied to ideas is also the natural way to strive for the “truth.” I think voicing these ideas is not against the rules of this site as aspire claims, nor even against the spirit of the discussions that tend to exist here, and I think that few people tell raw vegans every day that adding some meat in the style of a paleo diet as opposed to the factory farmed SAD stuff is not what is heard, and the link to beyondveg.com is a great resource that many here should consider reading. I also agree with many factual based criticisms made about Zoe’s post, especially regarding dietary cholesterol. The original post seemed to be a response to misinformation, and not a campaign to get people to eat meat.
I have spent a lot of time reading about paleo eating before discovering raw veganism, and there are some merits to their arguments. I have read a lot of books about raw veganism and living food, and there the science is a little weaker in my opinion, but this does not mean it is an untenable lifestyle, in fact, it is a noble goal. Unfortunately, I am skeptical of this being a choice that is right for all, or even most based on the evidence so far. If there is anyone who has been truly 100% vegan for over 10 years here, I would love to hear your stories, and encourage a thread for just such anecdotal evidence. And I mean really vegan, not vegan except for the couple meals per month where you slipped and had some cheese.
Topcat, why would you assume that everyone eats meat and if they don’t, they should be called “vegan”? I don’t think Gone Raw needs re-examination; I think maybe you do (and I don’t mean that in a bad way).....
Topcat, why would you assume that everyone eats meat and if they don’t, they should be called “vegan”? I don’t think Gone Raw needs re-examination; I think maybe you do (and I don’t mean that in a bad way).....
I don’t know why the double posts….
But anyway, why does the existence of vegans bother some people? There could be a recipe labeled “vegan” that the meat-eater would have otherwise made and not flinched, had it not been labeled as such, yet they see the word “vegan” or “vegetarian” and seem to freak out, taking it as a personal attack. NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT MEAT EATERS BEING BAD, THAT I CAN SEE…..YOU CHOOSE TO CAUSE HARM. GET OVER IT OR STOP CAUSING HARM, BUT LEAVE THE VEGANS IN OUR PEACE, PLEASE!
“Man, you vegans really need to tone it down on all the hostility.”
There seems to be a lot of defensiveness and hostility from some vegans. Just as there seems to be a lot of bigotry and hostility from many omnivores. It saddens me ever time I see it, and every time I see it applauded.
Anytime people just out of hand dismiss honest communication about opposing viewpoints discredits anything that person has to say as far as I’m concerned. As I have more questions than answers personally, it just bums me out.
RawKidChef, here is a link to a torrent file to download a Natural Geographic documentary about the great apes and their intelligence. It shows them not only devising tools for getting termites, and hunting smaller monkeys as groups, but also devising superior techniques for getting insects to eat more efficiently, and even shows chimps, our closest primate relative, making tools for the purpose of hunting bush babies (a small mammal) and shows them hunting and eating them. It also discusses how they prize such foods. The great ape species are not so vegan as the vegan movement likes to claim, and the insect portion of their diet is more substantial than represented in many arguments. Not to mention the absolute eating of other mammals, including other primates.
man, i really wish people would say “most people”, rather than “most Vegans”, especially when it’s a negative stereotype. i go out of my way every day to put a friendly face on the term Vegan, but sometimes, like when i read what people have written in this thread, it all feels in vain, you know?
Oh I don’t take offense to sincere discussions regarding eating meat vs. not. I did take exception to Keelamwri’s comment that the only reason he even came to this website was to inform and educate us “raw vegans” that eating (raw) meat is the best way to live. For him, perhaps it is. Just not for everyone, and the fact that this is a raw vegan website is evidence enough that one shouldn’t feel obliged to force their non-vegan agenda on the members here, many who choose to be here because it is a nice refuge from the “normal” day-to -day society’s standards that are constantly pushed at us from all angles.
Stevio- nicely said. Perhaps you are lucky enough to not be constantly bombarded by “meat is the only way to go” to be normal and/or healthy in your environement, or perhaps you simply do not notice it so much, but I think many of us here do feel that way- from tv and media (which I rarely watch), to work environment and co-workers, to convenient veg food availablitity for lunches, to educational teachings, family members, etc, etc. But your point is well taken.
Keelamwri- my apologies if I misread and misunderstood your intentions.
There are definitely more laid-back vegans out there just as there are beligerant, defensive, and obnoxious omnis, too. There’s no monopoly on certain human charateristics. :)