why are so many on this site afraid of fruit?
hi sister becky, i don't think you would be upsetting anyone! as long as everyone is respectful (which you are), debating is great! you make good points, but anything from the the last 10,000 years should not be used as an example of anything related to health or natural even. during this time man ate a diet not ideal to their physiological design. man migrated and lived in climates that were harsh and that did not cater to their natural frugivorous diet. i think physiological design is really important for determining a natural diet for species. humans do not possess many things that true carnivores do, so it makes sense to use the physiological design of species for arguments.
"Life spans were shorter long ago. Life was short and brutal. Food wasn't always abundant. Childbirth was much more dangerous, infant mortality high. If people had B12 problems, they probably had more immediate problems like "what am I going to eat today" to worry about. If there was fresh fruit and veggies, they ate them. If not, and they where hungery enough, maybe that's why people started eating meat? At least where I live (Ohio- cold winters), there is no way (that I can think of) that people actually followed "our" style of diet long ago. Where I live, the best indication of what people ate long ago would have been who we now call Native Americas. They ate deer and buffalo, and the local vegetables and fruits."
you are right about all that. the only thing is that if you remove an animal from it's ideal habitat (ours being the tropics), you should expect that that animal will have hardships and will need to adapt to survive. when man migrated away from his natural habitat in the tropics he adapted to survive. man began to hunt for animals in areas barren of fruit, man began to wear animal skins as clothing in areas with colder climates, etc. we've proven to be a tough species that can survive doing many things that are not natural to us, but even though man survived, it doesn't seem that man lived happily and healthfully. this is definitely speculation on my part, but i would guess that the humans in the tropics lived much more comfortably and happily than their ancestors that migrated to the harsh, barren climates in other areas of the world. it seems that a lot of people today are drawn to and have a connection with the tropics. this makes sense to me, seeing as that is our natural habitat. we don't need animal skins, tools, or animal meat to survive in the tropics.
"I just question whether there is a good evidence that long ago that's how everyone ate, and they where healthier and lived longer. I don't believe there is any evidence of cultures being completely raw vegan (or any kind of raw)."
that's because culture is somewhat modern and it seems that everything modern has perverted our natural instincts (i'm looking back over hundreds of thousands of years). humans are the only species to have culture. culture is not natural. we are not born with it nor do we have instincts for it. it is something learned that has been passed down from generation to generation.
our closest living relatives, the chimpanzees, eat a raw diet that consists mostly of fruit. we share 99% of our genetic makeup with them. yes, chimpanzees have been observed to eat some meat, but a very small percentage of their calories comes from meat. chimps also have the ability to crack open bones with their teeth, humans do not have that ability. they also eat it raw. i don't know of any humans that eat 100% raw meat unless is is processed in some way (with marinades, spices, etc). so it makes sense that chimps can eat some meat since they do not need tools for it like humans do or since raw meat is palatable to them.
when we are in our natural habitat, it makes it very easy to eat our natural diet. now i'm rambling on and probably not making sense so i will leave it at that haha :)
This summer (August 20) will be my first complete year of being a Vegan. The initial transition was very easy for me, as I've only been eating meat since I was 7 (I'm 16). I only started eating meat because my doctor pressured my father into giving me appetite openers, which lead to massive cravings and weight gain. Last year I was about 240 pounds & wearing size 42 pants, now I'm around 145-150 (fluctuating) & wearing size 30 pants (barely). With this "massive" weight loss I have sort of flabby skin. It doesn't "sag" down but I can stretch it out, and I have a lot of stretch marks on my arms & stomach (probably some places that I'm not aware of). Do you think going Raw would be a good choice for me? I also suffering from acne since 8th grade, & still to this day I have problems with it. If I do go raw, I'm already aware of the fact that I will be mainly eating fruit. I've always had a natural affinity towards fruit, even as a child. I know your not an expert but you seem to be very knowledgeable on this subject.
Also if it helps, today I ate (as a vegan I've learned to cut out Soy & Some Gluten):
Rye Bread with "Raw" Nut Butter
A Hand Full of Blueberries
Grapes(Not sure about the amount, but it was fairly large)
Non-Gluten Spaghetti w/ EVOO & Pasta Sauce (Spiced & Seasoned)
- Thanks, Ashton .
I think eating more raw is good for everyone! Go for it. :)
hi ashton! great job with the weight loss, wow!
going raw is the healthiest choice for anyone. i used to suffer with acne too. eating just fruits and veggies has cleaned my body and all the toxins. i no longer have acne, just a really clear complexion. if we have acne, it's a sign that the body is trying to rid itself of toxins. your skin is a big elimination channel. it's not advisable to use any cleansers or products on your skin. your skin is trying to eliminate, and if you put anything else on it, it will make it that much harder. so if you're using anything i would discontinue and wash only with water.
as for the excess skin, i think if you exercise a lot and do strength training, it will help. i think if you add more muscle it would help to take it away.
what kind of raw diet were you looking into? i currently do a low-fat raw vegan diet and have had amazing results. i've tried almost every diet and this one seems to be the best, and most natural. and that's great that you love fruit, because a mostly fruit diet is so healthy!
i'd love to answer more of you questions, do you have an aim? mine is kellyinfncolo. i'll be on in the early evening tonight if anybody else wants to talk about fruit :)
sisterbecky, REALLY good point.
Kelly, every species develops, and humans for the past LONG LONG time have been big meat eaters, it's possible that our bodies have developed a need for B-12 that perhaps humans originally didn't have. All I know is that B-12 deficiencies are prevalent now and I would like to avoid that hardship which is eliminated by simply taking a vitamin.
I respect your decision not to though. Sorry if I keep disagreeing with you!
no problem troubles :)
I respect your decision.
I just wonder where everyone keeps hearing about all these b12 deficiencies that are prevalent. I honestly haven't heard of any low-fat raw vegans having a b12 deficiency, not a single case. I wonder if people are mistaking other health issues for b12 deficiencies.
also, it takes thousands and thousands of generations for changes in evolution to occur. I don't think man has yet adapted to thrive on meat so I don't think it would change our nutritional needs.
lulushka- I'm so happy for you! it is amazing isn't it?! It sounds like you're doing really great! just give it a little more time though, you might still get some detox sypmtoms that pop up every once and a while. keep me updated :)
I had mole removal scars that were 10 years old that started to go away when I went raw (but some fats, probably 15-25% of calories from fat on average), and now that I"m doing high fruit, low fat, my pores are smaller (my skin had already mostly cleared, but I won't ever say it's perfect), and my scars are disappearing even faster! My digestion is tip-top, my poop doesn't stink (it didn't really before on raw unless I had spices), and it's always a clean wiper. ;)
Yes, I do have aim: Ce Jay 20 05
(I'll add you, anyone else can bother me if they want, ;].)
The Hallelujah Diet I believe is low-fat raw vegan. There were quite a few issues with B12 deficiencies in that group. ( I believe the scientific study was done by Michael Donaldson, Ph.D.) The founder George Malkamus now advocates taking B12.
I co-sign with the poop.
For the past week I've been High Raw. Not quite "100%". My chronic constipation has seemingly subsided.
Someone was asking about where people are hearing about vegans having b-12 problems: I personally do not know any vegans, and few vegetarians. I believe it is a push to better educate vegans so they don't run into problems down the road (it can take 10 to 20 years for b-12 problems to show up.
But, I do know "Vegan Outreach" is a big encourager of b-12 if your vegan. Their "take" on it is that there is no worse discourager of people going vegan than sever health issues down the road. That site has TONS of stuff on b-12 with good citations of sources. Scientific studies, not just someone's opinion. If anyone is interested in actual cases- that may be the best place to start.
Sisterbecky (and others),
Thank you for your comments! I've been offline for a day and a half, now there's so much to read I don't know where to begin ;)
Our past and the ways in which it affects us is extremely interesting and of great consequence to our choices, food or otherwise. Why's that? Let's take a look back at who we are and where we came from and when all of this happened.
The first primates appear in fossil records around 55 millions of years ago. The first hominid fossils are around 8 million years old and it is estimated that the last common ancestor of the homo species and our closest relatives, the great apes (and notably the chimpanzees) lived around 7-8 millions of years ago. The oldest fossil records to carry the name homo was homo habilis, dated by current fossil records to around 2,5 - 1,6 millions of years ago. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume the human race is around 3 millions of years old.
Now, if we spread these 3 millions of years over one year, 365 days, one day will equal approximately 8220 years and one hour will equal approximately 342 years. What this means is that from January 1st right through to December 30th 7 p.m. we eat (primarily) sweet fruits (but also non-sweet fruits), greens, roots, nuts, meat, sea food. Most of this is eaten raw - it is unlikely that cooking food became common practice before homo sapiens spread outside Africa on or around December 23rd. I'll leave meat and sea food outside this discussion as this is for vegan purposes only, we can discuss the introduction, impact and relative amount of these non-vegan foods somewhere else. Supplements came along on December 31st 11.50 p.m.
Archaeologists cannot tell exactly what our ancestors ate; they can, however, specify quite exactly what they did not eat. No supplements, no processed foods, no (or very little) grains, no (or very little) legumes, no (or very little) seeds, no mushrooms, no salt, no sugar, no dairy. Mainly fruits and greens (thousands of different sorts of greens), some nuts (with great seasonal variation) and then of course some animal foods, first insects and later raw meat and sea food.
Now, back to the question: can we thrive on a 100 % raw vegan diet with no supplements? There are people who do, and have, for decades. I have yet to see serious proof of strong effects of B-12 deprivation, other than vague references ("a lot of people", "there have been cases" etc.). It is my belief that given a healthy diet and a healthy way of life, the human body is capable to thrive without any artificial additions, including B-12. Anything else would be weird given that we only begun taking supplements 10 minutes ago ;-)
To me, personally, supplements are just another extension of our unnatural and way too "civilized" society (alienated from the nature). And while I believe fruits and vegetables are enough to give us whatever we need, I would also like to point out that in conditions that can be described as healthy, natural and suitable for our species (somewhat warm, preferably own produce, living near the nature), we will naturally consume some insects. They live on the plants we eat and unless we spend quite some time making sure there are absolutely no critters left on the leaves we eat, some will be consumed. Which, as I see it, is very natural and the way it should be. Why waste precious drinking water to rinse the leaves you eat when all you can get from whatever (insects, mud etc.) is left on the leaves is additional minerals and vitamins? It only makes sense when you buy your food from someone you can't trust 100 % (like a supermarket). You won't even notice the insects if you blend the greens to a smoothie. I strongly doubt our ancestors ever lived for long periods without consuming some insects at the very least. To me, personally, it makes a lot more sense to consume something like insects and/or sea food than to consume artificially produced supplements. I understand that some vegans will abstain from all forms of non-plant food, even insects, and I respect that. However, I don't believe you will need to supplement with B-12 unless you eat something which affects your health in a negative way. To me, that includes grains, legumes, mushrooms, seeds and salt (since they have never formed other than a minimal part of the human diet).
When we talk about "long ago", we may mean "1000 years ago" or even "5000 years ago" or maybe just "hundreds of years ago". To me, more or less everything that's happened these past 10,000 years has been more or less detrimental to the physical and mental health of the human race and to the health of the planet. The change from Paleolithicum (Old Stone Age) to Neolithicum (New Stone Age) turned man, a gatherer-hunter since millions of years, into a "civilized being" eating lots of grains, legumes, seeds etc. since the only way to gain access to large amounts of these foods is to cultivate them. I believe that until that huge change in our life, man was indeed very healthy and had very few illnesses. Those that did occur were something like malaria, illnesses spread from the outside and not something originating on the inside of the human body. However, modern archaeology is not precise enough to tell whether that was the case. We simply do not know how healthy man was during Paleolithicum (which covers 99 % of human evolution, everything until 10,000 years ago). What we do know, however, is that modern tribes following more or less a Paleolithic diet (and a Paleolithic way of life) are basically free of all forms of illness (again, with the exception of external illnesses such as malaria). To take an example, the Trobriand people of the Kiriwina islands near Papua New Guinea likely reach at least 90 years of age with excellent health - if they manage not to die in an accident or of a tropical virus (malaria etc.). Very many die in accidents but those that don't basically have perfect health. 90-year old men have been observed squatting for hours to talk and then standing up withouth any problems to go on an errand. I'm 27 and can squat for maybe 15 minutes. When "their time comes", they lie down in what appears to be a slight infection of some kind and quietly and quite quickly pass away, apparently withouth any of the ill effects of old age so common in our society. In short - if they manage to avoid accidents and tropical viruses, they have perfect health and live long. The Trobriand people have been studied in detail by Western scientists (here's one link, http://www.staffanlindeberg.com/TheKitavaStudy.html). Of course, while their Paleolithic diet is of very great importance, they also spend all their time outdoors with fresh, non-polluted air, eat what we could classify as "super-organic" foods with absolutely no pesticides anywhere, get reasonably much excercise (though running for health purposes would never occur to them!) and have a lot of fun (they say laughing is good for your health!). They also have a lot of sex, some people claim that helps, too... ;) As to their diet, here's another link (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/oldworld/pacific/trobriande...). This particular text does not appear to mention the fact that around 65-70 % of their diet consists of raw fruits and veggies with only one warm meal per day. For whatever reasons, the scientists studying the Trobriand people have not paid much attention to the fact that they eat mainly raw foods! Probably just didn't occur to the scientists. I'd believe the Kiriwina people would be even better off (if that is possible?) without their cooked roots.
Sorry if all this Paleolithic stuff diverts the attention from raw foods, I just felt I wanted to reply in detail to sisterbeckys thoughts about how people lived "long ago". This is so interesting, I could go on for days ;) Your thoughts are very respectful sisterbecky, I hope the same can be said of what I write here. I'm not telling people to start eating cooked roots, fish and birds like the people on the Trobriands do, just to point out the fact that our ancestors probably were very healthy until we went from Paleolithicum to Neolithicum. And who knows, probably the best time ever was before we left Africa! Then again, we might have had even more fun before we descended from trees some 8 million years ago :D
I'd just like to add that while I think a lot has gone wrong these past 10,000 years, I'm not advocating some kind of "breakdown" of civilization and "back to the jungle"-approach to life ;) I just happen to believe, based on what I've read, that our species, homo sapiens, has through evolution become best adapted to a certain diet and a certain way of life from which we have become seriously alienated, and which brings a great deal of pain to where none should need to exist. My "Paleolithic" or "evolutionary" view on life covers not only food and diet but also issues like birthgiving, childhood, family life, politics, how the society needs to function and be built up, healthcare etc. etc. etc. I've found out so many things along the road it's becoming impossible to count - just the fact that birthgiving, in its natural state, is an orgasmic event (http://www.orgasmicbirth.com) as opposed to the painful and drug-violated thing it is commonly regarded as goes to show how alienated we are from our natural way of life.
It feels to me that if I must supplement my diet with artificial, man-made chemicals, then there must be something wrong with my diet. There is a natural way of life which gives us perfect health and happiness. And what's more, we don't need to die of malaria, accidents or attacks by wild animals, and we (in the West) have food in plenty, so no need to suffer of famine either.
Enough said ;-) I really do hope I sound respectful, this is such a wonderful way to share our thoughts.
JA i LOVE your post!!!! thank you for contributing!
Hey J.A. and Kelly,
Good posts and good points. However, I disagree on some levels. Firstly, Kelly, you say it takes thousands of generations for a species to evolve but if my grandmother got breast cancer my dna is affected so that I can get that disease more easily than someone who has never had it in their family. So perhaps it takes a long time for a species to need to eat meat but you don't think that after hundreds of generations of eating meat the body wouldn't change at all? I eat meat ONCE and I feel it's affects on my body. But lifetime upon lifetime wouldn't do a thing?
J.A. I totally agree about supplements being a part of our over processed society and I wish I didn't have to resort to that. Though I'm not vegan I can't eat meat without feeling terrible and as far as eating bugs go, well I just don't have time to harvest them. I live smack dab in the middle of America and though I would enjoy eating more seafood and that type of thing I simply don't have good resources and I think that back in ancient times any people living where I do wouldn't have gotten their B-12 from the sea. So, I'm just doing what I gotta do I guess.
hi troubles! cancer isn't something that you are predisposed to because someone in your family had it. you get cancer from toxins in the environment and toxins from eating unhealthily and indulging in other unhealthy practices. cancer is the last stage of toxemia, it does not run in your family. a lot of the time people that are related get the same cancers, because they eat similarly and lead similar lives.
just like JA said, in the long history of humans, we have only been eating meat for a short time. if you look at our physiology, we are no more adapted to eating meat then when we were first observed to start eating it. heavy consumption of meat is actually what causes most diseases; the uric acid from meat, meat is very acid forming and causes the body to be acidic, the putrefaction while our bodies are trying to digest it, we don't secrete enough hydrochloric acid for its breakdown, and we don't possess the enzyme uricase as true carnivores do (uricase is what converts uric acid into a less harmful substance). if something is actually detrimental, i don't think we have adapted to it yet.
.kelly. : "do you have an aim? mine is kellyinfncolo. i'll be on in the early evening tonight if anybody else wants to talk about fruit"
I am curious, does that mean that the posts by that profile name (kellyinfncolo) here on this site, are also you, .kelly.?
Adding another two cents to the B12 discussion, it is something that becomes problematic in old age. Whether it triggers or just worsens neurological diseases like dementia and Alzheimers I don't know, but from an orthomolecular medicine standpoint massive doses of B12 result in improvements. The cognitive impairment that is a symptom of B12 deficiency is also sometimes mistaken for these more serious diseases as well as Parkinson's.
As someone mentioned not only vegans would be at risk for B12 deficiency since over time the body loses the ability to create it from foods. It makes sense that a 60-year-old body in tiptop shape thanks to a nourishing diet would be better able to do so than someone who followed a SAD diet all their life.
Since our ancient ancestors rarely lived to the ages in which these diseases set in, I imagine it's almost impossible to speculate on the long-term effects of their diets! B12 is present in fermented foods, and organisms like yeasts and fungi, so it's conceivable these were dietary sources for early humans.
I'd just add that it's very difficult to tell how long our ancestors lived. Osteologists cannot really tell a 40-year old individual from an 80- och 100-year old one, that's why all "approximately 40 or older" are commonly grouped into "adultus". Sure, their life was usually more violent than ours, but there is a strong likelihood that those who did not die of accidents or violence did live long. However, current archaeological methods cannot tell for sure.
I'm also recovering from an eating disorder and just started to follow a raw vegan diet, with an emphasis on fruit. I never used to eat avocados because I was terrified of their fat content. But since starting this lifestyle change I can eat 1/2 avocado a day and I don't feel guilty at all. Also, I find that I have MUCH LESS negative obessive thoughts regarding food. I'm not saying that I'm fine now, but I'm doing much better when I follw the 80/10/10.
that's great avl! right on track!
I love fruit more then I love any other type of food, and could easily go along being even a 100% fruiterian, the problem? I eat only organic food and organic fruits cost a fortune, there is simply no way I could economically do 811 or fruiterian, and I won't give up on organics either, so I'm happy where I'm standing at the moment, which is lots of greens, small amounts of seeds, and medium amounts of fruits.
And just an idea on the B12 that came into my head, could it be that over ripe fruits that slightly started to ferment could be a source for B12?
hi ras-saadon! i eat 99% organic. i buy myself an exotic treat from an asian market every once and a while (lychees or longans, etc.) but besides that i buy all organic. i found a produce supplier/distributor in my area and i buy all organic fruit and greens in bulk at wholesale prices from them. i save so much money. on average i save 30-50%. you might want to look into that so you can save a ton while supporting organic ways of farming. even for other veggies and nuts and seeds. i was lucky enough to find an all organic distributor in my area. if you're interested, the best way to go about it is to talk to someone in the produce department at a grocery store that carries a lot of organics. ask them who their supplier is and get their phone number and call and set up an account. :)
ras-saadon~ To my understanding 811/Doug Graham does recommend large amounts of greens. Given that greens are low in calories and fruit is much higher, maybe you are not so far from it? It goes by calories, not weight, I believe.
I have seen where many 811'ers don't seem to be eating much in the way of greens, which baffles me, since I've read that he does recommend lots of greens daily.
Hello, Kelly. ;)
I think some people feel better without greens or they like only a bit, and they seem to be healthy. Not everyone does everything the same, for sure!
I recently bought Graham's 80/10/10 book- and YES he recommends large salads of tender greens. It seems like people get so wrapped up in the fruit thing, and the large salads don't get mentioned so much. To my understanding, you may be eating in volume a lot of greens- it's just calorie wise the fruit is higher (because greens without all the fats don't have many calories.) People also don't seem to mention his focus on exercise and sunshine as much either.